The piping is in

Canyon works quickly! I got a call from them yesterday saying they were getting started with the heat piping, and would take 1-2 days to get it all in.
I came home last night, and it was all in. Almost.
Okay, so things aren’t exactly perfect. I think it’s because my diagram might need more detail. There’s a missing rough line for an expansion we’re hoping to do in a couple of years. There’s a lot of piping where we’re going to move their stairs to (which seems a bit odd, since we don’t want to put pressure there), piping missing by the existing stairs, and a little too much piping that’ll appear under the future washer/dryer area.
Following up with Canyon today to see if I’m on crack, or if they accounted for all of this.

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  1. Hey Geoff. Used to work with you years back. Noticed your infloor pictures. They should really be putting a insulation/BFB or other material before laying your pipe.

  2. Humour me, since I know very little about this. Can you give me an example of what should be there? I understood that installing overtop an existing concrete pad wasn’t an issue…

  3. Installing overtop an existing concrete pad isn’t an issue. The issue though is that without something like BFB(Bubble/Foil/Bubble)or 1/2″ foam between the pipes/concrete you loose a considerable amount of heat generated by the pipe into the concrete floor. Essentially your wasting heat and energy from your boiler to heat area not needed. Something like BFB helps concentrate the heat to where you want it.

  4. I thought about that, but would it matter? The heat will just radiate out anyway, won’t it? I know that BFB is meant to reflect infrared, but something tells me it would have minimal effect.
    There’s also the issue of how you would ensure that the new concrete on top bonds with the floor. If you’ve got something in between, does that not cause adhesion issues? Canyon had me rip up all the old tile for that very reason.

  5. Suprisingly it seems to. The comments i’ve seen and heard from homeowners and contractors through my company, show that gas bills seem to be significantly lower with some sort of insulation. In the industry we call using no insulation as “Sink Heat”(heat going down the drain). Ground(basement) cement is always cooler then normal areas. To get the cement to actually radiate would take an unusual/abnormal amount of heat as there’s no limit to how far the heat goes down before radianting up to the area desired. An example I’ve told clients is to stick a hot plate on your concrete… then on a place mat on the concrete… you’ll see and realize quite a difference.
    On the issue of how the floor bonds is a great question. If your only pouring an inch of concrete or gypcrete you will have issue’s as your floor would be unstable with BFB. If Ceiling hight is an issue you could glue 1/2” high density foam(Some Rona’s carry this) to the floor which is also quite commen. Depending on the thickness of the concrete there’s different options.

  6. Hmm… that’s a rather interesting point. I just assumed that the heat would stop at the ground under the concrete, being a transitionary layer. Given that the piping is already ramsetted the floor, could something be slipped under? I assume tucked just between piping segments wouldn’t be effective.
    We’re pouring 1.5″ of gypcrete (the height of the 2x4s and 2x6s defining the footing plates), which by your description doesn’t sound like enough. I’m a little leery about pouring more concrete, though. (Mostly because I don’t have the framing done yet, and can’t finish until the concrete is all in.
    Anything I can do to improve the situation without a) ripping anything out, or b) pouring a lot extra?
    Thanks for the input, by the way! I just wish I’d heard it a few days earlier! (Oh well, can’t win ’em all … it’s still better than forced air, though!)

  7. Yeah.. tucking between the piping segments is kind of useless. On any suggestions now.. I’ll ask around and check. Email me a list of your equipment being installed too and I can give you some pro’s/con’s to what your using. I’m constantly researching Hydronic Sytems since that’s being a big portion of my companys sales for the last 8 years.

  8. Here’s the equipment that I can specify directly:

    • Laars MascotLM-HT-1.330 Nat Gas Cond. Boiler 126MB
    • Aeroso RVT75 Stainless Steel Indirect Heater
    • CPLT-2Z Low Temp Control panel -2 Zone (this was quoted, but might change)
    • 5/8″ Kitec Alum OxyBar Pipe
    • Kitec 5/8″ EMSV-4 Outlet Manifold/Vlvs+Adptrs
  9. I’ve also challenged Canyon to justify the non-insulated direction. Curious to see what they come back with.

    Though as an interesting point of note: the City has approved the installation as-is. Would the use of insulation not be a required point that should come up during inspection?

  10. Codes are different city to city(i’m in Edmonton) but since you already have a poured basement they propably could care less on how efficient it is. A note of interest though which you can mention to Canyon… every new house system I’ve sold in the last 5 years and our competition.. Bartle and Gibson, Emco etc. All have either BFB or foam insulation if there’s infloor in the basement. I would presume it’s the same for them.

  11. Don’t know yet. Not Canyon’s field of expertise, so I’ve got to find one. Was going to call Eldo Enterprises for quotes, etc.

    Do you recommend one in particular? I’m admittedly weak on that knowledge.

  12. Not really. Yanked most of it because it was in the way of a variety of things, and probably a lot bigger than it needed to be. There’s bits and pieces left (notably the stuff in the crawl space under the kitchen extension), but otherwise almost all removed.

    I’m planning to replace it with things more efficient/effective.

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